Firstly, is there a source that bar Kochba changed the style of circumcision or that it changed around his time? Secondly, I am minded to trim this article. Most of it is not really relevant to BDSM, and it seems rather point-of-view anti-circumcision. I'll wait a bit for views. Female circumcision is a different thing from male circumcision, and I think that most people would condemn it as a barbarity.--Taxwoman 23:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- History of radical cirmcision -- There is a considerable literature in re the causes of the bar Kochba war (ca 130CE, if memory serves) and one of the responses to Greek cultural pressure on the radicals' side was to stress circumcision (something the the Greeks regarded as barbaric) and to prevent a partially circumcized man from 'passing', in say public baths, if not closely inspected. One imagines short arm inspection as part of Greek Imperial hegemony... The mind boggles. See the Wikipeida article for references.
- Trimming (and what an apt choice of term!) -- As for anti-circumcision tone, there is little justification for it from a medical perspective, which is covered if not comprenhensively. In the US, where non-religious circumcision continues substantially, the arguments for are (generally unstated) financial (an additional fee at childbirth), religious of a particular type (lustfull thoughts will be reduced -- this from that section of society which opposes HPV vaccination of young girls as more likely to encourage promiscuity), and, formerly, prestige (in the 19th century, medical doctors competed with 'amateurs' (eg, midwives, and others), and one of their weapons was to claim specialized knowledge, including pseudo surgical things as circumcision). In much of the US, they got statutory momopolies on such matters, enforced by criminal law. Not much to be said for it, and that's mentioned (the HIV study). On the social cultural side, proponents are the anti-lustful thoughts crowd and few others. Hard to see how to defned that neutrally, especially here.
- Relevance to BDSM is, I think, in the issue of body modificaiton. Whether instructed by an owner/Dom or not. I would class quite a lot in that category myself, including genital cosmetic surgery, breast impants or reductions (unless indicated medically), much of cosmetic surgery generally, and so on. Piercing may or may not fall into the same category, I remain somewhat ambivlent myself. Depnds on where and how and how big, I suppose. All these are questions of SSC (or RACK, if you swing that way), and so relevant to BDSM.
- As for the point about barbarism, well... There is a substantial and growing group of folks (both flavors) who think just that about non-required (medial, religious, ..) male circumcision. More or less equivalent there, except that male infants can rarely talk/complain. There is considerable testimony from males circumcised as adults, and I've not heard of one who favored the procedure in terms of quality of sex life, self-image, and so on. Being men, they tend to be less voluble about it, in any case. Comments from others? bt 20:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
too much of the debates
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is really the place to indulge in the perpetual ever-swirling debates around the topic of circumcision "advocacy" which are perpetually being conducted on Usenet and other interactive forums on the Internet (note: Wipipedia is not really an interactive forum). However, just to touch on some main points of why this article is rather dubious here:
- No intention to add to the ever-swirl. bt 19:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
1) Wikipedia article Brit milah mentions absolutely nothing whatsoever about Bar Kochbah.
- It did at one point. I'll look into it. bt 19:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I've gone back and looked at it and the astonishing 22 archives of talk. Aaack!! You're correct that it's not mentioned, I'm correct that it once was, and was amess that article has become. bt 17:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
2) The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services issued a report "Adult Male Circumcision Significantly Reduces Risk of Acquiring HIV" only one week ago.
- Mentioned under the discussion of benefits. bt 19:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
3) Circumcision as such is simply not particularly a BDSM practice (in fact, circumcision eliminates useful locations for chastity piercings). 10:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I've known of at least three males who were circumcized as adults at the direction of their masters/Mistresses. One was done in an attempt to reduce premature ejaculation. bt 19:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that too mcuh was removed. The alleged medical benefits should at least be mentioned, not nonly the risks, which is all that's left. I think it's more relevant to BDSM than do some others, but perhaps we can have a comment or two from some who haven't been recently editing? bt 17:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)